We discussed Turkey-EU relations, Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the European Union's changing security policies with Joschka Fischer, who served as Germany's Foreign Minister and Vice Chancellor between 1998 and 2005, and was the leader of the German Green Party for nearly 20 years.Enjoy your reading!<img src="https://images.aposto.com/2023/2/2/1679405601688.jpeg" style="display: block; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px; border-style: none; position: relative; cursor: pointer; padding: 0px 1px; box-sizing: border-box;" width="550" alt="fischer" ratio="1.78" fr-original-style="display: block; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px;" fr-original-class="fr-draggable">If the pro-democratic opposition alliance wins the election on the 14th of May, what would be its effects on Turkey-European Union relations? Do you think that there will be a quick reparation?<blockquote fr-original-style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px;" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px; margin: 0px 0px 1em; border-left-style: solid; box-sizing: border-box;">I don’t want to intervene in Turkish elections. I am a friend of Turkey and a democrat. I accept democratic free and fair elections. The rest is at the hands of Turkish political parties.</blockquote>The Turkish opposition is very decisive to revise the refugee deal between Turkey and the EU which was signed in 2016, and send back refugees because of increasing discontent. What would be the EU’s strategy about the migration problem between the two sides and how would the agreement be revised?<blockquote fr-original-style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px;" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px; margin: 0px 0px 1em; border-left-style: solid; box-sizing: border-box;">We have to negotiate the deal if there is a need, and there is a need. Both sides are under a severe pressure, not only the Turkish side. Unfortunately, refugees is not an issue which is popular, in Turkey nor in Europe. I must say that Turkey has done a lot and we appreciate it. So if there is a need for a renegotiation, it should be done.It needs no imagination that the terrible consequences of the earthquake in both Turkey and Northern Syria will create new refugees. This humanitarian catastrophe may mean we have to act together.</blockquote>How do you evaluate Turkey's foreign policy strategy in the process that started with Russia's invasion of Ukraine? Do you think Turkey is pursuing a 'neutral' foreign policy as stated in official discourse? How should Turkey's stance and strategy be against Russia?<blockquote fr-original-style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px;" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px; margin: 0px 0px 1em; border-left-style: solid; box-sizing: border-box;">Turkey was very helpful in procurement of the extremely important grain deal. This was very important especially for countries in Africa and the Middle East. I can't believe that Turkey is neutral. Knowing the Turkish history, invasion of Crimea by the Russian Empire was very close to the current situation. Turkey is a member of NATO and must have a clear position. I think the elections can only improve that.</blockquote>Turkey claims that its security concerns are not shared by some EU and NATO members. Do you agree with this claim? What should be the EU and NATO's stance about Turkey’s concerns?<blockquote fr-original-style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px;" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px; margin: 0px 0px 1em; border-left-style: solid; box-sizing: border-box;">First of all, Turkey’s concerns about Northern Syria is a NATO issue. Secondly, I think in an alliance you can sit together and talk about everything. I don’t see that Turkey’s security interests are not accepted, I would reject it. Everybody understands the security concerns of Turkey, especially related to the Kurds.On the other side, you have to see the humanitarian disaster developing in Norhern Syria for a long time. Syria is a mess but nobody inside NATO or EU is in favor of an independent Kurdistan, nobody. I think the Turkish security interests, which are well understood, are questioned. But the humanitarian catastphory there is a serious challenge for all of us. It's highly complicated but this means you have sit down and talk.</blockquote>You said in your speech at the Izmır Economy Congress, that we have to focus on concrete areas of cooperation and disregard missed opportunities. What are the possible&nbsp;cooperation areas between Turkey and the EU?<blockquote fr-original-style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px;" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px; margin: 0px 0px 1em; border-left-style: solid; box-sizing: border-box;">We have strong economic, scientific interests and cooperation. Look at this beautiful city, Izmir. You have a lot of foreign investment in here from Germany, EU and the US. It moves in a direction which is very promising. This is the way we have to continue to move on.</blockquote>There is an important debate inside of the EU about developing their own security capabilities and create their own security umbrella. France’s President Emmanuel Macron is a prominent figure in this debate. Furthermore, Germany decided to boost its security expenditures to 100 billions of dollars annually, and this policy change is seen as “The return of Germany as a geopolitical power”. What is your take on these debates, and how do you analyze Germany’s decision to boost its military expenditures?<blockquote fr-original-style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px;" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px; margin: 0px 0px 1em; border-left-style: solid; box-sizing: border-box;">We have to increase our military expenditures, there is no question about that. I have been in favor of that for a long time. Because we could not defend ourselves and this must change. On the otherside, you have mentioned that "Should the EU have its own security umbrella?", wait and see. Almost all the EU members with the exception of Austria, Cyprus and Malta will be NATO members. I don’t understand Turkey’s position on blocking the entrance of Sweden to NATO. For me, this makes no sense from the Turkish point of interest. I would give the advice, welcome them. And all these EU members in NATO, I would turn the table around and tell the EU "look, we are the same security family including Turkey". We have some work to do. Turkey’s position is very short-sided.As for the German question, we didn’t want that change, it was imposed on us. In Germany, there was no serious political force who wanted to change it. But we must be able to defend ourselves. With the aggression of Putin against Ukraine, this ended definitely the post-WW2 period of Germany. And this will transform my country in a very substantial way because the Germans feel threatened by Russia. Germans think that we have to be able to defend ourselves. At that moment, we can't do that so we will turn around and will do that.</blockquote>Europe is facing a two-handed security threat. The first one is the security threat especially from Russia, and the other one is a more economic, trade-related threat from China? What is and should be the EU strategy to challenge these threats?<blockquote fr-original-style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px;" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px; margin: 0px 0px 1em; border-left-style: solid; box-sizing: border-box;">These are different issues. We will try to differentiate with China because we should not make the same foolish mistakes as we did with Russia. The problem was not that we were trading with Russia, the mistake was our overdependency on energy supplies to Russia. We should not commit to the same mistakes twice. But this message has arrived in German business community and politics. So I see they are different situations and threats.</blockquote>There are lots of analyses on that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine can trigger China’s invasion of Taiwan. Do you agree with that?<blockquote fr-original-style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px;" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); border-color: rgb(37, 44, 60); border-width: 4px; font-style: italic; padding-left: 10px; margin: 0px 0px 1em; border-left-style: solid; box-sizing: border-box;">I am not a fan of Xi Jinping and I am not convinced with his wisdom but I think the Chinese Communist Party is too clever to not do that. If you look at the biggest, most advanced technology in computer chips you have in Taiwan, TSMC is the biggest chip company. What is the biggest market for TMSC, China.So, it makes no sense to invade Taiwan for China. By the way, the US will not sit idle and watch what is going on. It is about global world role of the US, you should not underestimate this factor, Chinese know that. So I don’t understand why all these war mongering rumors, they make no sense.</blockquote><hr fr-original-style="" style="height: 0px; overflow: visible; border-bottom: none; clear: both; user-select: none; break-after: page; box-sizing: border-box;"><h2 fr-original-style="" style="margin: 0px; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85); font-weight: 500; padding: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">Fischer's pieces on Aposto</h2>Joschka Fischer's articles published on Project Syndicate, an international media organization that provides commentary and analysis on global issues, are now available on Aposto. Below is the link to Fischer's articles we have published before:<ul fr-original-style="padding-inline-start: 20px;" style="padding-inline-start: 20px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 1em; list-style-position: inside; box-sizing: border-box;"><li fr-original-style="" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a fr-original-style="" href="https://aposto.com/i/covid-and-the-chinese-social-contract" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); text-decoration: none; background-color: transparent; outline: none; cursor: pointer; transition: color 0.3s ease 0s; touch-action: manipulation; user-select: auto; box-sizing: border-box;" target="_blank">COVID and the Chinese Social Contract</a></li><li fr-original-style="" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a fr-original-style="" href="https://aposto.com/s/the-birth-of-a-new-international-order" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); text-decoration: none; background-color: transparent; outline: none; cursor: pointer; transition: color 0.3s ease 0s; touch-action: manipulation; user-select: auto; box-sizing: border-box;" target="_blank">The Birth of a New International Order</a></li></ul>

Spektrum

Former German Foreign Minister and Project Syndicate author Joschka Fischer spoke with Spektrum.

On Turkey-EU relations and the future of the EU with Joschka Fischer

<a fr-original-style="" href="https://twitter.com/bartuozden" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); text-decoration: none; background-color: transparent; outline: none; cursor: pointer; transition: color 0.3s ease 0s; touch-action: manipulation; user-select: auto; box-sizing: border-box;" target="_blank">Bartu Özden</a>The Greens are a political movement which argues that politics should prioritize tackling the climate crisis in a period when the planet is heading towards extinction. Koray Doğan Urbarlı, Co-Spokesperson of the Green Party, one of the people trying to revitalize the movement in Turkey, which has received enough votes to become a government partner in some countries, visited our office and answered my questions sincerely.<img src="https://images.aposto.com/2022/6/5/1657888447028.jpeg" style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px; border-style: none; position: relative; cursor: pointer; padding: 0px 1px; box-sizing: border-box;" ratio="1.79" width="550" fr-original-style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px;" fr-original-class="fr-draggable"><h2 fr-original-style="" style="margin: 0px; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85); font-weight: 500; padding: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">The Ministry of Interior's "highly exceptional" obstacle</h2>Urbarlı said that founding a political party in Turkey is even easier than founding an association and described the Ministry of Interior's blocking of the official establishment of the party by not providing the relevant documents as a "political comedy" despite fulfilling all legal procedures. He explained that they sought their rights through the judiciary, that the Ministry of Interior could not explain to the court the reason for this blockage, and that the court continuously gave the ministry additional time.Noting that "they are not out of touch with reality," Urbarlı said that they knew that the Green Party would not be the first party on the day it has officially founded and that the political blockage they faced was "irrational." "It would be ridiculous to say that they are blocking us," he said, "but in an alliance system, the Greens would make the alliance more attractive, and their presence would have a multiplier effect considering the Greens have gained international momentum.I also asked Urbarlı about their separation from the Greens and Left Future, which has been conducting politics under the HDP. Urbarlı stated that he left that party in 2016 and said that "there is no clear separation on paper, but they want to conduct politics in a more independent line instead of being under the HDP, and that there may be cooperation with the HDP."<h2 fr-original-style="" style="margin: 0px; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85); font-weight: 500; padding: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">"Triple crisis: Economic, ecological, social"</h2>He said that the party is considered a "thematic" party because of its name, but that they do not only work on ecology, and that "if one day they come to power on their own, they will not be able to appoint 25 Ministers of Environment."For example, he said, they discussed how they could raise a voice against Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and how they could influence like-minded people. And they differentiated themselves from other parties with a campaign to "expel Russia from Akkuyu, where it is building a nuclear power plant."<img src="https://images.aposto.com/2022/6/5/1657888485265.png" style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px; border-style: none; position: relative; cursor: pointer; padding: 0px 1px; box-sizing: border-box;" ratio="1.79" width="550" fr-original-style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px;" fr-original-class="fr-draggable">Urbarlı argued that there is a social, economic, and ecological "triple crisis" in the world and said that these crises trigger each other. He said that the economic and ecological crises hit us in the face every day, while the issue of migration and the rise of the far right that incites hatred are social crises. He stated that they are "aware that they can make a difference where they exist" with the responses to these three crises.<h2 fr-original-style="" style="margin: 0px; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85); font-weight: 500; padding: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">"Fair transformation"</h2>I asked him whether he agreed with my opinion that in countries like Turkey, where the problems are relatively more burning, the Greens do not come to the forefront, whereas in countries with a higher level of prosperity, the Greens become a significant political actor. He replied that "green politics may be a luxury in countries that have not completed their economic development." He stated that it is a sociological fact that people who should be close to the left in Turkey are voters of right-wing parties, while people who should be close to the center-right vote for the left or center.He noted that some of the comments they received on social media used the expressions "If you came to power, you wouldn't let us drive a car, you wouldn't let us eat meat, and now we can neither buy meat nor a car, what difference do you have from the AKP?". He said that he found this criticism subtle but that the importance of the recent vision of "fair transformation" emerged here. He said that not everyone and not every country has an equal share in making the world what it has become, so it would not be fair to expect the same amount of responsibility from everyone and people would move away from this movement. He said that simply saying "we need to save the world" to people whose happiness and living standards have been declining for twenty years and who think that they have lost their youth will not have any repercussions.I asked Urbarlı how effective measures such as sorting our garbage regularly or reducing our energy consumption are in our individual lives. He said that it is very understandable that witnessing imported trash while trying to sort trash or seeing empty planes taking off and landing on the way to work by public transportation can be demotivating. And he adds that while we continue our efforts, large companies that create the real damage should be regulated. He underlined that they know it is technically possible to make Turkey carbon neutral.<img src="https://images.aposto.com/2022/6/5/1657888516466.jpeg" style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px; border-style: none; position: relative; cursor: pointer; padding: 0px 1px; box-sizing: border-box;" ratio="1.70" width="550" fr-original-style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px;" fr-original-class="fr-draggable"><h2 fr-original-style="" style="margin: 0px; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85); font-weight: 500; padding: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">Green New Order</h2>The co-spokesperson of the Greens talked about the concept of a "green new order" or "green consensus," which aims to save the world, create new economic opportunities, and solve social problems by creating changes in various business sectors, namely a common way out of the triple crisis.According to a report by the International Labor Organization, Turkey's energy transition to reduce carbon emissions would contribute $8 billion to the budget and create 300,000 jobs.In a world where the war in Ukraine has brought the issue of energy security to the forefront and buying natural gas from Russia is seen as "financing the war," I asked him what he thought about European states' return to coal and nuclear energy. And he said that the image of nuclear as "cheap and green" was wrong, that the proposed solutions to the current energy crisis were not realistic, but that he thought that the current crisis could be an opportunity to transition to green energy in the long term.<h2 fr-original-style="" style="margin: 0px; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85); font-weight: 500; padding: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">Greens in the World</h2>He argued that the Greens were seen as a "bourgeois bohemian" ideology in the world, but today this perception has been broken, otherwise, it would not have been possible to become a ruling partner in Germany or a President in Austria.I have observed that the Green Party in Ireland is very popular among young people, and even though it does not have high voting rates, the party's discourse influences other parties' programs. Urbarlı also stated that the Greens and their ideas have become mainstream "as climate change turns into a climate crisis," and that what the Green Party said in Germany in 2001 has become the discourse of the Christian Democrats today.<img src="https://images.aposto.com/2022/6/5/1657888546928.jpeg" style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px; border-style: none; position: relative; cursor: pointer; padding: 0px 1px; box-sizing: border-box;" ratio="2.36" width="550" fr-original-style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px;" fr-original-class="fr-draggable">When I asked Urbarlı what kind of relations they have with Greens in other countries, he replied that they have no organic ties with any party, but that they take part in international discussion platforms and "want to establish a relationship between equals." He said that a person looking from afar might think that all Greens around the world are parties that think the same on all issues, but that there are discrepancies, and that there are Greens in different countries who are closer to the left of liberalism.<h2 fr-original-style="" style="margin: 0px; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85); font-weight: 500; padding: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">Will they compromise for gains?</h2>I shared my observation that some Greens are willing to make concessions for gains and become government partners, while some Greens prefer to say what needs to be done and bring them to the opposition and asked them which stance they are close to on principle. Urbarlı talked about the "realist-fundamentalist" division in the Greens in Germany. He explained that the backlash against the party for supporting NATO's bombing of Serbia when they came to power is not the same today, even though the Greens, who are also in power today, wear camouflage against the Russian aggression and support Ukraine.Urbarlı attributed the distinction between "a narrow, iron-clad party pursuing ideals or a broader, negotiating party" to "power" and said they would defend their ideals well. But if they did not update these ideals by analyzing them according to the time's necessities, they would fall behind the history, and they had to get stronger to negotiate. For example, he said that if all coal power plants were to be shut down, they could accept a transition period with natural gas. He said he did not want the Green Party to remain just a little group rallying around its ideals.I asked him whether they would give unconditional support to the opposition's joint presidential candidate in the second round of the elections, or whether they would do so in exchange for some achievement, such as the inclusion of Turkey's coal phase-out in the program. He said that in his personal opinion, unconditional support for the opposition is necessary for the AKP-MHP regime to end as soon as possible, but that it would not be true for him to speak on behalf of the party at the moment. He added that he thought it would be better to negotiate while the candidates were still in the candidate selection phase, not in the second round. And he said that "they are a party with open cards, they will never support the People's Alliance, and they see the talks with the opposition not as negotiations but as a contribution."<h2 fr-original-style="" style="margin: 0px; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85); font-weight: 500; padding: 0px; box-sizing: border-box;">Building grassroots and centralizing local ecological struggles</h2>Ironically, he said that the problem of the Greens' "inability to go to the countryside" continues in the world and that the support in urban centers is gradually eroding towards the countryside.Considering the course of history, he pointed out that the Greens will grow in cities and universities unless a big mistake is made, but he drew attention to the importance of commonizing, uniting, and centralizing local struggles.<img src="https://images.aposto.com/2022/6/5/1657888593083.jpeg" style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px; border-style: none; position: relative; cursor: pointer; padding: 0px 1px; box-sizing: border-box;" ratio="1.93" width="550" fr-original-style="display: block; float: none; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px;" fr-original-class="fr-draggable">Otherwise, he said, it is not possible to ensure the continuity of struggles that succeed locally. For example, a thermal power plant that is prevented as a result of a struggle may be built a few kilometers away a few years later.

Green Party Co-Spokesperson Koray Doğan Urbarlı spoke to Spektrum.

What does the banned Green Party say and do?

• <a fr-original-style="" href="https://www.politico.eu/article/conservatives-and-greens-winners-in-key-german-state-election/" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: rgb(9, 9, 9); text-decoration: none; background-color: transparent; outline: none; cursor: pointer; transition: color 0.3s ease 0s; touch-action: manipulation; user-select: auto; box-sizing: border-box;" target="_blank">Germany's conservative CDU party</a> won a regional election in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany’s most populous state, with 35.7% of votes, projections showed, marking a gain of 2.7 percentage points in comparison to the last election in 2017. Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s Social Democrats were on 27.0%, while the Greens took 18.1% of the vote with a huge increase of 11.7 percentage points.<img src="https://images.aposto.com/2022/4/0/1652656233995.jpeg" style="display: block; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px; border-style: none; position: relative; cursor: pointer; padding: 0px 1px; box-sizing: border-box;" ratio="1.67" width="550" alt="Hendrik Wüst" fr-original-style="display: block; vertical-align: top; margin: 5px auto; text-align: center; width: 100%; max-width: 550px;" fr-original-class="fr-draggable">Tobias Schwarz/AFP<ul fr-original-style="padding-inline-start: 20px;" style="padding-inline-start: 20px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 1em; list-style-position: inside; box-sizing: border-box;"><li fr-original-style="" style="box-sizing: border-box;">What this means: The Green Party may emerge as the biggest winner and “kingmaker” of this election as CDU can not secure a majority, even in a potential coalition with the liberal FDP. SPD’s Secretary-General Kevin Kuehnert said his party will be looking for a coalition with the Greens and the FDP.</li></ul>

Green Party ile ilgili hikayeler